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Old 05-04-2019, 04:02 AM   #5
Sabaki
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Join Date: Apr 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripitup View Post
This is interesting to me and makes me feel like I need to brush off some cobwebs. I completely understand the negative feedback loop between T & E2, and have probably taught it to more people than I can count. I understand the theory of what your are stating above, however, I goes make me wonder about a couple of things. Most notably, we do need some estrogen so the agonist function of Clomid can serve a purpose.

When we discontinue a cycle and go into PCT our T levels will drop, no shocker to anyone here. However, if T is low then so is E. The negative feedback loops, and we have tons of them, are the body's way of creating homeostasis. While tricking the pituitary with the antagonist effect of Clomid is important it would seem that we still need some circulating E. The agonist function of Clomid comes in and acts or mimics E in a sense. I have never studied the different isomers of Clomid, however, it seems like enclomiphene, only serving as the antagonist, may leave an imbalance if used alone. Then again, I do realize that Clomid was developed and studied for use in women and what women need we might not.

I would be interested in more research on this topic even though I'm on TRT and won't be doing PCT. Also, has anyone used it and have experiences they can report. Is it available or even obtainable?
Hey Rip, how you doing my brother? Haven't seen you my friend in ages. Shoot me a PM so we can catch up.
In answer to your question, remember enclomiphene does not prevent the aromatization of test, so if you're on TRT, you'll have plenty of estrogen. Not sure what dose you consider TRT, but most TRT docs prescribe 200 to 250 mg of test//week which is 2 to 3 times what the body naturally produces so you will actually have excessive levels of estrogen. So, in your case you do not need the agonistic effects of regular clomid. The antagonistic effects of enclomiphene will block some of your estrogen receptors which is a good thing, it should also theoretically reduce the negative feedback loop preserving natural testosterone production, testicular function, spermatogenesis (which requires natural production, not exogenous supplementation) and fertility. Of course, you're right that some estrogen is important for health and too much e receptor antagonism could have adverse effects. So the question is what is the optimal dose to maintain testicular function without blocking all estrogenic activity. I have no way to answer this question. It is going to vary tremendously from individual to individual. But I believe enclomiphene is a safer alternative to potent AI's like letro which can potentially completely block estrogen production. No matter how high a dose of en-clomid you take, it is never going to completely block all e-receptors, so you're always going to have some estrogenic activity. Remember my comments are quite speculative, based on my (limited) understanding of the underlying physiological processes, without any actual experience with enclomiphene. This is why I welcome feedback from those who may have used en-clomid. It appears to be available from many research chem suppliers, but of course I can not vouch for the quality of what they offer.
For those who are not transitioning to TRT, but want to do PCT in order to restore their natural production of test (and also estrogen) as quickly as possible would there be any possible advantage to using regular clomid over en-clomid? In my opinion, no absolutely not. Remember the agonistic zuclomiphene component of regular clomid is antigonadotropic, lowering LH and FSH, so this would only delay recovery. I can think of no reason why a healthy male would ever prefer regular clomid to en-clomid, whether on cycle, off-cycle, on TRT or during PCT. Doing so would only be counter productive. I recommend an AI on cycle and if needed on TRT, but not during PCT, because as you correctly point out some estrogen is important. I have suggested that using en-clomid long-term either on cycle or during TRT could reduce or eliminate the need for an AI; but how well such an approach would work would require more data and individual experimentation, depending on different individual rates of aromatization, etc. During PCT in addition to clomid (or preferably en-clomid) I also recommend taking tamoxifen. Although both are classified as SERMs they work thru somewhat different mechanisms and have additive effects, so taking both together will have a synergistic effect on restoring natural production and has been shown to shorten recovery times. I hope this answers your questions. Just my opinion, if you have different reasoning, i'd like to hear it.

Last edited by Sabaki; 05-04-2019 at 01:33 PM..
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