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Old 07-28-2019, 01:53 PM   #1
Dawgpound_Hank
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What is "hard work"?

Most would say a Yates type of routine, forced reps, negatives, taking a set to the absolute limit. I guess it all depends on what you mean by hard work. I've did about every type of routine there is to do over 40+ years of training.

So here's my take - if we're talking hard work, as in the hardest you can muster in an "acute" instance, as in that one set, for only brief sets total, then I will go with the Yates gig. HOWEVER, if we're talking hard work in a "chronic" sense, as slightly less hard work for a 30 set workout, then I will change my decision.

The example I will give of the latter above, the "chronic" gig per se, and the actual reason I am even making this post is this: I recently watched a Jay Cutler back workout in prepping for the 2005 Olympia. Holy fukk! I always knew Jay was a volume guy, but didn't realize a man could use such heavy weights for sooo many damn sets. He did wide grip pulldowns (4 sets working up to stack + 1 plate), bb rows (4 sets up to 405), t-bars (4 sets up to 10 plates), deads (4 sets up to 6 plates), db rows (3 sets 160's - heaviest gym had), seated cable rows ( 3 sets - stack + 1 plate), close grip pull downs (3 sets - stack), straight arm cable pulldowns/pullovers ( 3 sets - didn't see the weight), machine rows (3 sets - didn't see weight), db pullovers (3 sets -120-160 db). Fukk me I got tired just watching him half way thru the workout. And what's worse, Jay rests very short rest periods - usually 45 secs to 1 minute between sets.

I've did both types of workouts, and I can tell you while you gotta dig deep to go beyond failure for brief amount of sets, you REALLY gotta dig deep to do some shit like Jay does. I've used HIT most of my life, with a bit more volume - like 2 work-sets per exercise instead of one like Yates does. When I do, I am not totally wrecked when I leave the gym. I almost feel a lil guilty for not doing "more". But when I have done a Jay-type of routine, I am so friggin' wrecked and exhausted when I leave the gym, I ain't worth a fukk the rest of the day. To me, I feel severely over-trained doing such. And yet, I didn't see any better results doing the heavy/high volume gig vs the HIT gig.

Keep in mind I am not just talking about a normal volume routine, as most do. Most guys who do even anything close to that type of volume that Jay does, use moderate weights, nothing really heavy. But to do what he did, banging 405 x 10 on rows, 10 plates x 8 on t-bars, etc etc, that shit is crazy. I got a new found respect for Jay just from watching that one work out alone!

Lastly, I don't want to misconstrue this thread to be a "which is better", as we all know, BOTH styles can work. But I will say, and this may sound like a paradox given HIT is deemed the hardest training style ever, I know I damn sure don't want to have to do a Jay type of routine for a freaky back, when I can "get away" with doing a Yates type of routine for back and have similar results. I'll take doing 6 sets to failure any friggin' day of the week vs doing 30 sets of going 90-95% of failure (as Jay appears to do on most sets - no doubt, he is grinding).

Anyways, just my take.
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:48 PM   #2
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When I first got serious about weight training my first time in prison, '83-86 we had nothing else to do. Locked out of the dorm all day until lunch, then after lunch until supper, then out until it began getting dark.
We would hit different body parts each day. For example, 10 sets of flat bench pyramiding up then down. 10 sets incline, same idea. 10 sets decline pyramiding. 10 sets dumbbell flies, 10 sets dumbbell presses, 10 sets close grip, then 200 dips.
Then we would have lunch then count time. Go back on the yard. 10 sets later pull downs, 10 sets bent over rows, 10 sets dead lifts, 10 sets pull ups. 10 sets dips, then walk the track.
Leg days I've blocked out of my mind they were so brutal. Countless sets of squats, repping 315 for 20 + reps. Lunges until we puked. Leg curls, leg presses, leg extensions. Calf raises without end. Then count time and supper. Then walk the track talking about whatever.
On rest days we would do 1000 crunches in the am, 500 sit ups after lunch, then walk the track in the evening.
Arm days were insane. Standing curls, 10 sets of everything, preacher curls, dumbbell curls, french curls, Arnold curls,. lying tricep extensions, cable push downs, wrist curls, calf raises, close grip bench. 21's. That's 7 reps on curl from down to mid point, 7 curls from mid range to top, then 7 curls full range. We were insane. But got strong as oxes. We were the generation in Florida that caused them to start welding the weights together. Then tried to take them out completely because we were getting bigger and stronger than probably 75% of the officers. We became a danger to their safety.
Grueling workouts. But I built a solid foundation that is still impressive into my mid 60's.
My little blonde girlfriend Jen has never asked my age. But she had a room mate that was 45. She kept telling me what an old man he is. She is 28. I laughed and asked her what that made me. She told me I wasn't old. It all stems from those days in prison two times, second time 89-94.
Honestly it was too much, the workouts. Not the prison time. I deserved that and was a danger to society and myself.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:57 PM   #3
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Do you guys feel like you got any long term negative physical effects from the volume?
My time in the gym has always been about supplementing ring/mat/real world training. I'm still a Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu addict, but recently, thanks to a dude that was locked up for 10 minutes floated me a program that is as addicting at being on the mats, but its fairly high volume. I f'ing love it. But I have a reason to be cautious. I have congenital analgesia, which means that I can't feel physical pain, so I have to program myself to keep an eye out for injury.

Leg day looks like this:
Leg Ext 3 sets @ 25 reps per, 1 minute rest in between
Squats: 4 sets 20/15/10/8, increase weight as reps decrease, 1 minute rest in between
Leg Press: 2 sets, 30 reps each, 1 minute rest in between
Lunges: 2 set to failure, with kettlebells in each hand, 1 minute rest in between
Leg Ext: 7 sets, 15 reps, 1 minute rest in between
Leg curl: 4 sets, 20/15/10/8, increase weight per set, 1 minute rest in between
Rack pulls: 4 sets, 20/15/10/8, increase weight per set, 1 minute rest in between

Push and pull days are similar. The first week it I was extremely stiff. Second week, it was no more stiffness than normal prior to starting this plan.

I would like to keep a rep scheme like this as the norm. The work and effort is addicting. Do you guys use the high volume on the regular?
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:14 PM   #4
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I personally only do higher volume on legs and back and shoulders. Most everything else is 8 to 15 rep ranges.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:43 PM   #5
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I personally only do higher volume on legs and back and shoulders. Most everything else is 8 to 15 rep ranges.
Hmm... I don't know why I pegged you as a low rep heavy guy. The idea to go that route in my case was because I am so used to high volume leg stuff (Muay Thai), and I love it for leg day. Embarrassed to say that I've not done high volume on legs in the gym before.

I say that to ask why you went that route? It's not typical.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:15 AM   #6
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I do high volume on all bodyparts, I want to save my shoulders and knees as long as possible.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:15 AM   #7
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I dont do power lifting any more. My body hurts too badly afterwards. So I keep bench at 405, never heavier any more and keep reps in the 6 to 10 range. Legs 315 on squats and rep until I cant do another one. Now days that's like 15 to 17 range. My back and hips kill me. So I suck it bnb up as long as I can stand it.
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:59 AM   #8
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I have absolutely no scientifically based foundation for this, but I've stopped feeling like something's been damaged after hard workouts, be it in the gym, mats or the ring. And I've done that radically altering my warm ups by simply sitting in a hot tub for 10-15 minutes prior to working out. I cut right to work sets. And ever since I've done that, I never feel like I've over done it. I recover a LOT faster, and stiffness isn't ever an issue anymore.

I'm in the gym six days a week. And I'm teaching and/or training Muay Thai and BJJ 3-5 times a week on top of being in the gym. Since I started doing this, just this year, I've seen results that I haven't seen since I was in my 20's, and I'm 48.
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Old 08-02-2019, 09:30 AM   #9
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Interesting. Preheating the joints and muscles, getting the juices flowing
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:06 PM   #10
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Interesting. Preheating the joints and muscles, getting the juices flowing
rounds on steel, yep.
I "found" this because I was in the gym one day, because I was running late, and I was in the locker room, near the hot tub and steam room. So I dropped in the hot tub, and then went out and got right into work sets. Felt f'ing amazing, afterward, the next day, and the day after that.

So now, I'll drop into the tub, and if I have time, I'll double down and hit the steam room and get a good sweat. Slap the clothes on, get under the weight. F'ing love the ritual now and like I said, haven't felt this good since my 20's. Been doing it since January. So if it was going to f'me up, it would have done so by now.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:58 PM   #11
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Interesting. Preheating the joints and muscles, getting the juices flowing
A few minutes on the stationary bike or in the sauna too helps get going. I am getting older myself and Father Time is certainly NOT on my side lmao.

As for hard work it is getting as much reps in as I can till I can't do any more. Also I'd stop if any pain.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:08 PM   #12
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Its very hard to train like I used to after busting my butt at work all day long then hitting the gym afterwards. Motivation is there, but my old body revels. I've actually fallen asleep on the bar on a flat bench doing shoulders, seated military presses. I scared the crap out of this young Gold's employee once doing that. She thought I had died or was having stroke or something.
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