post cycle and anti-ester effectiveness

[Rocky07]

i have never really used any anti-esters or post cycle stuff like clomid....how effective is it? i mean i have gained lots of muscle without it. Is there anyone who has ran a cycle without it and then ran a cycle with them that could tell me how much of a difference it makes...and the amounts of these i should run if they are worth it?

[ZERKER]

i dont believe in PCT.....i never had Problems...but i have unique genetics and a large penis,and yes im caucasian,go figure ha?....i just go with the flow man everyone is different and responds to certain"drugs"in many different ways.some dont even need those"drugs".......Z

[black7]

Zerker is right....but as he stated everyone is different....and things could be wrong without you even knowing...it is better to have them if you do...and you really won't know of any problem areas without having blood work.. So just get ahold of some and have them on hand...and also remember there are several different types of steroids all of which coukd have differnt side effects on different people....

[Rocky07]

haha yea if you have a large penis then we definitely dont share any of the same genetics lol ::thinks to self "maybe i should buy the anti-esters":: i just dont kno what to do about this situation...some people say they are almost a must have and some people say u dont need them...here's my story u can diagnose--this passed summer i ran test and deca, by about 3/4 of the way through the cycle i was benching 375lbs and i was growing fine. when i came off of that i started runnin winny and anavar almost immediately...my bench stayed at 375 for about 2 wks and then plummeted to about 350...i ran winny & anavar and went to black7's house and used his stationary bike for about 25 mins about 3 days a week (weak i kno but i lean up quick most of the time) and i leaned up some but it seemed like i would look like i was makin progress one week and then the next week i would be a bit smaller but with the same shape i started with (not so lean). is this from the previous test or current winny changing to an ester and causing me to store bodyfat while im tryin to get it off?...i mean i was even eatin 1000 calories or less a day...(ive now learned that the 1000 cal diet is not very adequate when tryin to cut)

[HOTROCKS]

No PCT after doing a good gear cycles is just wasting money .
It is a fact that you are going to crash if you just go cold turkey.
The faster you get the natural test back into production the better off you will be.

There was a time when there wasn't any PCT around . No one had heard of it back then.
I remember one of my cycles when I was about 28 ( test w/ oral dbold) I worked my ass off , spent most of my waking time either working out or thinking about it.
I gained tremendously , only to loose about half of what I had gained with in about, (if I remember correctly ) 30 -45 days later.

The first thing I noticed was I could no long lift the loads I was doing while on.
Now ! After very many cycles gone by I and firmly convinced that a good PCT will be of great benefit .

I'm looking back through my studies a I type this trying to locate info that shows a PCT is of importance.

[black7]

(ive now learned that the 1000 cal diet is not very adequate when tryin to cut)

u said it

[HOTROCKS]

Most ppl don't know there average caloric intake .(baseline)
Hence they don't how much to cut back.

[HOTROCKS]

The following information is taken from Anabolics 2009 by William Llewellyn

PCT: Post-Cycle Therapy
It is called the "post cycle crash'; and is one of the more unwelcome aspects of steroid use. As the saying goes, there is a price to be paid for everything, and in the case of steroids, one of those prices (a temporary one anyway) is your natural hormone production. What happens is quite simple; when you take steroids your body stops making them. Once you stop taking steroids, you can be left with a gap until your body starts making its own again. Here, you can be faced with low levels of androgens and normal levelsofcorticosteroids.Your bodywill (should) eventually recognize and fix the imbalance, but it can take weeks or even months.This gap is a bad place to be physiologically, as without normal androgen levels to balance the catabolic effects of corticosteroids, a good deal of your new muscle mass may be 10st.To help your body maintain its size, you will want to restore endogenous testosterone production quickly.The methods for doing this seem to be different everywhere you 100k:/Take HCG, don't take HCG, use an aromatase inhibitor,just take Clomid, forget Clomid and just take Nolvadex." What option is really best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right Post-Cycle Therapy (PCT) program can be quite confusing. In this section, the roles of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time are discussed, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.
Testosterone
The HPTA Axis
The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for. short, is the thermostat for your body's natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone, and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up (to put it very simply). For the purposes of our discussion, we car look at this regulating process as having three levels. Ai the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, whic~ releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasin~ Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, thE pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone ir response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the teste: (level three) to secrete testosterone.The same sex steroid: (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve t( counterbalance things, by providing negative feedbacl signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) t( lower the secretion of testosterone. Synthetic steroid~ send the same negative feedback. This quick backgrounc of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary tc furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at thE underlying mechanisms involved before we car understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle i: a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillan
drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization
Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not LH. This problem was made clearly evident in a study published back in 1975.348 Here, blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects who were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250 mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which was to be ·expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement in testosterone production started at all. This
lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not necessarily the level of LH, but more so testicular atrophy and desensitization to LH. After a period of inactivation, the testes have lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the required workload.The protracted post-cycle window can, likewise, no longer be looked at as one of low testosterone and low LH. Much of it actually involves low testosterone and normal (even high) LH.

The Role of Anti-Estrogens
It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone are inadequate to restore normal endogenous testosterone production after a cycle. These agents ordinarily increase LH levels by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. But LH rebounds quickly on its own post-cycle, without help. Plus, there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block during this window, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels are actually lower here, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle, likewise, happens with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (there is an imbalance in the ratio of androgens to estrogens post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). On their own, we are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can effectively help here. I can, however, see why this fact would be easy to overlook.The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels in men, and in normal situations they indeed perform this function fairly well. Cornbine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH when suppressing testosterone,and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that we need to focus on LH. We would miss the true problem, testicular desensitization, unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in focusing solely on anti-estrogenic drugs.

The Role of HCG
With anti-estrogens alone proving to be ineffective, we are left to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the body's natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as they are to LH (they work through the same receptor), we are administering it as a measured drug and are, therefore, not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. In other words, we can give ourselves a good dose of drug (as much LH as we need, really), shocking the testes with unnaturally high levels of stimulation. We want it to reach a level above what our bodies, even when supported by anti-estrogens,could doonitsown.Theresultshould bea more rapid restoration of original testicular mass, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program in place. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, with anti-estrogens playing more of a supportive role.

[Rocky07]

well i did an online test to see how many calories i could eat without gettin fat...they ask 3 and a half million questions on there...but it said for me i could eat 2100 without gaining or losing weight in accordance to my daily activies...also i would like to kno what the standard dosage of clomid is and how often to take it. i have a friend that ordered some from CEM"whatever it is".com and he wants to kno. plz help

[black7]

well i did an online test to see how many calories i could eat without gettin fat...they ask 3 and a half million questions on there...but it said for me i could eat 2100 without gaining or losing weight in accordance to my daily activies...also i would like to kno what the standard dosage of clomid is and how often to take it. i have a friend that ordered some from CEM"whatever it is".com and he wants to kno. plz help

150mgs/day for ten days, and decreasing the dose by 50mgs every ten days until you´re finished at day 30.

[Rocky07]

thanks buddy ole pal ole friend you

[HOTROCKS]

Do you know how to find out your baseline caloric intake ?

[Rocky07]

nah i dont man...tell me please

[HOTROCKS]

I'm sure there are more than one way , but......

First you will need this book "The Complete Book of Food Counts"

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780440243205

Or one just like it, it has every kind of food including fast food like a Big Mac ect..ect..
Damn good book to have around
You keep a log of all food intake and at the end of each day you will total up all the calories consumed.
Do this for 30 days. At the end of the 30 days add it all together are divide it by 30 which will give you you daily baseline caloric intake.
The longer you keep track the more acurate it will be .
but , 30 days is plenty long enought.

Knowing this number is very important.
One being .. if wanting to gain add cal if wanting to lose reduce cal.

[cowboytroy]

i used pct one time and the clomid made a crying 12 yo girl out of me, so i choose not to use it. Been on and off gear for over 20 years. Nutts shrink and come back over time, but the older i get the longer it take them to come back i have noticed.