Nolvadex & Clomid Doses

[THE-DET-OAK]

well cobra got his done immediately after and some weeks later. he jumped on aromasin after the first set of bloods and that straightened him out.

another guy did torem only and no AI, he scored like 400 and 45 on the E. conbra's E was 45ish too. so not terribly high, but def higher than need be. ive seen other bloods as well, quite a few with no AI in PCT and it usually ends up with higher than normal, but not out of range E.

2 other guys used aromasin and simple clomid/nolva. e was just less than 30 and 1 guy scored 550 and the other high 6's.

so dont get me wrong there could be a ton of factors there, but the fact that aromasin straightens out hypo or estrogen dominant hypo males, tells me that it def helps a lot in a situation where T is low and E is higher than need be. like during PCT. and just seeing it in action with those guys made me a believer.

[liftsiron]

well cobra got his done immediately after and some weeks later. he jumped on aromasin after the first set of bloods and that straightened him out.

another guy did torem only and no AI, he scored like 400 and 45 on the E. conbra's E was 45ish too. so not terribly high, but def higher than need be. ive seen other bloods as well, quite a few with no AI in PCT and it usually ends up with higher than normal, but not out of range E.

2 other guys used aromasin and simple clomid/nolva. e was just less than 30 and 1 guy scored 550 and the other high 6's.

so dont get me wrong there could be a ton of factors there, but the fact that aromasin straightens out hypo or estrogen dominant hypo males, tells me that it def helps a lot in a situation where T is low and E is higher than need be. like during PCT. and just seeing it in action with those guys made me a believer.

Did you see the study that I posted on page one of this thread it's backs up exactly what your saying.

[liftsiron]

Here is another interesting study in regard to this thread.

Br J Cancer. 2001 Aug 3;85(3):317-24. Links
Pharmacokinetics of Anastrozole and Tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the 'Arimidex and Tamoxifen alone or in combination' (ATAC) trial.Dowsett M, Cuzick J, Howell A, Jackson I; ATAC Trialists' Group.
CRC and UCL Cancer Trials Centre, University College London, Stephenson House, 158-160 N Gower Street, London, NW1 2ND, UK.

The ATAC trial evaluates in a randomized, double-blind design, Arimidextrade mark (Anastrozole) alone or in combination with Tamoxifen, relative to Tamoxifen alone as 5-year adjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women with early breast cancer. Patients included in the pharmacokinetic (PK) sub-protocol had been in ATAC for > or =3 months, taking their medication in the morning and were 100% compliant for the preceding 14 days. Blood samples were collected 24 +/- 4 h after last dose. Trough (C(min)) plasma concentrations of Anastrozole, Tamoxifen and desmethyltamoxifen (DMT) were measured by validated methods. The PK results were based on a total of 347 patients (131 Anastrozole (1 mg o.d.), 111 Tamoxifen (20 mg o.d.), 105 Anastrozole and Tamoxifen (1 and 20 mg o.d. respectively)). The geometric mean steady-state trough plasma concentrations of Tamoxifen and DMT were statistically equivalent in patients receiving Tamoxifen alone or in combination with Anastrozole: geometric mean Tamoxifen = 94.8 ng ml(-1)and 95.3 ng ml(-1)in Tamoxifen alone and combination groups, respectively; geometric mean DMT = 265.1 and 277.6 ng ml(-1)in the Tamoxifen and Anastrozole and Tamoxifen groups, respectively. The geometric mean Anastrozole levels were 27% lower (90% Cl 20-33%;P< 0.001) in the presence of Tamoxifen than with Anastrozole alone. Baseline plasma oestradiol levels were not obtained in the PK sub-protocol, however, such information was available from a similar ATAC sub-protocol, which evaluated bone mineral density. Mean oestradiol levels were 21.3, 19.3, and 21.6 pmol l(-1)prior to treatment and 3.7, 20.9 and 3.6 pmol l(-1)after 3 months in the Anastrozole, Tamoxifen, and combination groups, respectively (n = 167). On-treatment values were below the detection limit (3 pmol l(-1)) in 43.6 and 38.5% of the Anastrozole alone and Anastrozole in combination with Tamoxifen groups, respectively. As a result of (a) the lack of effect of Anastrozole on Tamoxifen and DMT levels and (b) the observed fall in blood Anastrozole levels having no significant effect on oestradiol suppression by Anastrozole, we conclude that the observed reduction in Anastrozole levels by Tamoxifen is unlikely to be of clinical significance when Anastrozole and Tamoxifen are administered together. Copyright 2001 Cancer Research Campaign.


I know a lot of people have stopped using Arimidex and Nolvadex together because it was said that it significantly reduced the effectiveness of Arimidex. I believe this study states that it doesn't make much of a difference.

[THE-DET-OAK]

There is currently a study going on, or just ended that if we could get our hands on it, it would answer A LOT of questions for us about AI's. The study is treating hypo males with and AI for 24 months. it will be interesting to see if TT remains high that long.

Dr. Scally says it would work but DEXA levels would have to be closely monitored. they are using AI's a lot n obese men as well, that have estrogen dominance, and low SPERM counts. the results are very good, it usually raises SPERM's counts quite a bit.

[liftsiron]

There is currently a study going on, or just ended that if we could get our hands on it, it would answer A LOT of questions for us about AI's. The study is treating hypo males with and AI for 24 months. it will be interesting to see if TT remains high that long.

Dr. Scally says it would work but DEXA levels would have to be closely monitored. they are using AI's a lot n obese men as well, that have estrogen dominance, and low SPERM counts. the results are very good, it usually raises SPERM's counts quite a bit.

Some very cool shit bro, thank you. When I have some free time I'll try to search for some of these newer studies. From what I just read using an AI during PCT may be a good thing to do. It certainly can't hurt.

[THE-DET-OAK]

Did you see the study that I posted on page one of this thread it's backs up exactly what your saying.

sorry I missed it somehow, just saw it though. We were talking about this the other day on another board, i guess some of the best pediatric endocrines out there are using AI's to increase height.

good stuff.

[THE-DET-OAK]

Some very cool shit bro, thank you. When I have some free time I'll try to search for some of these newer studies. From what I just read using an AI during PCT may be a good thing to do. It certainly can't hurt.

absolutely, at least thats what i think. as long as you know what to look out for, headaches, joint pain and poor libido. its pretty easy to know when your E gets too low, and since aromasin has such a short half-life, it will bounce right back IMO.

Another thing to note though is that type II inhibitors, letro and adex, are not good with SERM's. SERM's dramatically lower the the effectiveness of these inhibitors. So since aromasin is not affected, that and the fact it would be hard to get rebound with it, makes it ideal for PCT

wow nice study, just saw where it said it doesnt make much of a difference. ive seen it on their site, thats why i thought it was true

[THE-DET-OAK]

i just re read the study, it does say though that serum concentrations of adex were 27% lower with tamox. that there is clinical difference.

so i dont know if it would actually matter or not, i guess it will always boil down to personal preference.

[liftsiron]

i just re read the study, it does say though that serum concentrations of adex were 27% lower with tamox. that there is clinical difference.

so i dont know if it would actually matter or not, i guess it will always boil down to personal preference.

Since tomox is attaching to estrogen receptors would a 27% decrease in adex effectiveness matter? I know from personnel experience using both adex and tomox together give a greater look of hardness than either one alone. Also tomox in conjunction with an AI seems to help in maintaining a better lipid profile. Of course I ran across a few conflicting studies in regard to AI's increasing test which is always the case.

[THE-DET-OAK]

yea ive never tried them together. ive always just used aromasin. thats good to know about the lipids though. thats def one thing that can go sideways quick on AI's and Serm's

[JabsDD]

Awesome stuff Iron and Oak!!!

So from what I have gathered here is that....

1. AI is beneficial in PCT maybe more than we think
2. Aromasin is the choice AI for PCT
3. Tapering of the SERMS is not necessary


So how would I run and dose Nolvadex, Clomid, & Aromasin correctly here....

Can Clomid be run effectively for more than 4 weeks?
How long, when, and at what dose should I run the Aromasin?
Nolvadex for 6 weeks?

[THE-DET-OAK]

I think you should run the SERM's as suggested earlier, over lapping.

you could do the aromasin 12.5-25mg ED. I have to run 18.75mg at least of aromasin.

[JabsDD]

So....

Clomid 50/50/50/50
Nolvadex 0/0/20/20/20/20
Aromasin 12.5-25 mgs ED but for how long?

[THE-DET-OAK]

studies on raising testosterone with AI's

here are a few good ones too.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022534701690992

http://journals.lww.com/co-endocrinology/Abstract/2007/06000/Therapeutic_uses_of_aromatase_inhibitors_in_men.8.aspx

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/3/1174.short

http://www.nature.com/nrendo/journal/v4/n7/full/ncpendmet0844.html

[liftsiron]

Cool thanks!!!!