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Old 08-16-2011, 04:39 AM   #1
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PCT Protocol by Swale

By Swale a bit dated but still good info..

My PCT Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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Old 08-16-2011, 12:54 PM   #2
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Always good to have a refresher and very good info for newbies.
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:44 PM   #3
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bump
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:23 PM   #4
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Good advice.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:53 AM   #5
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great post........
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Old 05-05-2017, 06:30 PM   #6
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Interesting. And very cheap pct. I love the minimalist approach. In my opinion you want to do the least amount possible to give you the desired effect.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:12 PM   #7
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good post, always good to refresh the mind.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:08 PM   #8
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Great info. I've always enjoyed reading his posts.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:15 PM   #9
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Disagree quite strongly with the stopping of the HCG and no AI post cycle... numerous studies have shown the benefits of HCG and AI on serum T levels in a very short period of time.... to each his own.
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Old 01-16-2019, 05:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotgame View Post
Disagree quite strongly with the stopping of the HCG and no AI post cycle... numerous studies have shown the benefits of HCG and AI on serum T levels in a very short period of time.... to each his own.
I think the reason Dr. Cissler advises against hcg use during pct is because he believes that the huge increase in Testosterone by the hcg in itself is inhibitory on the htpa.
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Old 01-16-2019, 07:30 AM   #11
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I think his practice has evolved over the years but he still recommends pretty close to this schedule. I'm sure he has reams and reams of patient data/blood work. It's strange that the top TRT docs are allover the place on hCG. Some say it is absolutely not necessary, which I can't understand since the testes do so much more than just make testosterone: Testosterone, Pregnenolone, DHEA, androstendiol etc etc. Many intermediates in this and the testes are a major source of these. I use it and at times when I am on a little run or even when on TRT and have not used it in a while I can feel lethargy. Add in hCG and I feel better almost right away. One of these days I will get a more complete hormone study done and see what's up. I remember back in the day using it as a PCT. IT always supported PCT but once stopped I crashed. Once Clomid came in the crash was softer. Just anecdotal but still. I would love to be an auditor and see all of Cristler's patient data. I'm sure that would be very informative. I also feel that there is a pretty wide range of response individually to all of these drugs, also really interesting. Maybe when I retire I will volunteer in his practice or something.
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
I think the reason Dr. Cissler advises against hcg use during pct is because he believes that the huge increase in Testosterone by the hcg in itself is inhibitory on the htpa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liftsiron View Post
I think the reason Dr. Cissler advises against hcg use during pct is because he believes that the huge increase in Testosterone by the hcg in itself is inhibitory on the htpa.
If HCG was taken alone it could be inhibitory via either direct testosterone neg feedback or estrogen at supra levels, however when combined with an AI and SERM the feedback would be minimal.

By taking HCG longer into PCT it would allow one to sustain mid to possible upper range normal testosterone levels while continuing to keep the pituatary and hypothal active ( which means that the test isnt inhibitory to a bad level) thus allowing guys to normalize overtime without crashing.

They are basing the HCG recommendation off the widely circulated HCG studies discussed at conferences and yes..HCG can lead to neg feeback...but what they dont seem to account for is our toasted balls after being on for a long time at high doses and how one can prevent the neg feedback if so desired.

I have seen plenty of guys sustain total test levels at 800+ while on clomid and letro long term after taking HCG for a few months. Many of which stayed off gear for years and felt good, made gains and had children. But ofcourse nothing is like being on cycle with 3000 plus ng/dl levels lol

EDIT: What i mean by toasted balls is actually we can screw our balls up longterm and it might be irreversible... over the last 10 years ive seen quite a few cases of testicular fibrosis ( scarring) of guys on TRT. I dont know whether that comes back after stimulting them again long term with FSH/LH. But there is a reason why guys who are on long term who when coming off even after an awesome PCT...cant sustain decent testosterone levels without some help.

Last edited by gotgame : 01-16-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:48 PM   #13
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Bumping this for the bunch of us in PCT. Always a good refresher and I had completely forgotten about the advisement not to use Adex post cycle. I recalled the it has been advised by someone but I couldn't remember by whom or why. Here it is.
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:15 AM   #14
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RIP Swale.
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