Nolvadex & Clomid Doses

**Darkness** · 08-15-2011, 07:12 PM

I happen to agree with you. I do Nolva at 20 ED and Clomid at 50. I also do not taper. I would not use Aromasin in PCT, however at 25mg ED. Doesnt make sense.

Good to have you here.

**JabsDD** · 08-15-2011, 07:20 PM

So no taper of the SERMS and you don't like Aromasin for PCT? or just the way I'm running it?

How come you don't taper?

**Darkness** · 08-15-2011, 07:34 PM

Hi bro I didnt say I did not like aromasin in PCT, just not at the higher dose. In PCT, you really are not trying to use the AI to fend off the aromotization of large amounts of steriod compounds, but just lower a mildly high estrogen situation at first, followed by an opportunity to artificially raise natty test levels through estrogen manipulation on the back end of PCT, once the HPTA has restarted. For example, when I used aromasin in PCT, I used it at 12.5mg EOD starting in week 4 of PCT. My HPTA had restarted due to the SERM, and now I want to drive estrogen down a bit so that the estro receptor at the hypothalamus sees a falsely lower estro reading, causing it to produce more LH. Dropeed the SERM in week 5 and continue the aromasin for 3 more weeks. This can drive your test levels well past 1000. Of course you need to come off all drugs and let things normalize eventually.

As for tapering of SERMS, I do not see any evidence that it helps with anything. No disrespect meant to the thousands of bros who are better men than me and who came before me, but I feel this one little chunk of broscience does not pan out in reality. I think someone thought that the higher doses of Clomid and Nolva at the beginning were going to create better jumpstart, then from there all sorts of tapering schemes were fathered.

Glycomann, who is much much smarter than me on this stuff and can explain right down into the cellular mechanisms involved, suggests a PCT that looks like this if you want to do it right:

Clomid 50/50/50/50/0/0
Nolva 0/0/20/20/20/20

He says that certain receptors become unresponsive to Clomid after 3 or 4 weeks, and this scheme allows for a solid 6 week PCT with overlap utilizing both compounds.

Nice thread BTW.

**JabsDD** · 08-15-2011, 08:22 PM

This is very interesting and goes against all PCT protocols and advice out there that I have seen.....It does make sense what you are talking about with the Aromasin protocol and dosing. I am 7 days into my pre-PCT and about to start the SERMS on Thursday.....this was my cycle and what I am planning on doing....I look forward to the criticism and advice on the PCT, if I am doing it not as efficiently as I could be doing it, let's make some changes.

24 Weeker - 12 Week Bulk & 12 Week Cut back to back

12 Week Bulk

Weeks 1-4 Test Prop 150 mgs EOD
Weeks 1-10 NPP 150 mgs EOD
Weeks 1-20 EQ 600 mgs
Weeks 1-12 Test E 750 mgs
Weeks 1-24 Arimidex .25 mgs E3D
Weeks 1-24 Dostinex .25 mg E3D

12 Week Cut

Weeks 13-24 Test Prop 150-200 mgs EOD (dose up later on)
Weeks 13-20 Tren Ace 150 mgs
Weeks 17-24 Anavar 60-100 mgs ED (dose up later on)
Weeks 20-24 Masteron 100-200 mgs EOD (dose up later on)
Week 24 Winny 75-150 mgs ED (dose up later on)

Day after last Test Prop Pin started HCG @ 1000 IU for 10 days, currently on day 7 and with Aromasin @ 25 mgs EOD at this point since I started HCG

Day 11 PCT starts as planned....

Nolvadex 20/20/20/10/10/10
Clomid 50/50/50/25/25/25
Aromasin 25 ED/25 E3D/12.5 E3D

Will also be running Ostarine @ 25 mgs for 5 weeks starting today.

Other supps
Creatine
HMB
BCAA's

Thoughts?

**Darkness** · 08-15-2011, 09:09 PM

My compliments on a very well thought-out and well-laid out cycle. How did it go for you?

I think your PCT will work just fine. My only tweak would be to move aromasin to the back weeks and run it past the SERMS at a lower dose. I dont think you are gonna have any estro at all in your system with that dose of aromasin right at the beginning of PCT. The second tweak is just a safety precation: You might want to start the nolva a week or two behind the clomid. Nolva tends to upregulate Progesterone receptors at breast tissue and having them that close to a 19nor use can spell trouble with gyno. Doesnt always happen but we have seen it work that way. Clomid does not seem to have that to have this effet on PRs.

**Shovel** · 08-15-2011, 09:16 PM

What's PCT???

**JabsDD** · 08-16-2011, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by Shovel

What's PCT???

Haha I missed ya buddy, you don't need to worry about this stuff....cycle and cruise for you

**JabsDD** · 08-16-2011, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Darkness

My compliments on a very well thought-out and well-laid out cycle. How did it go for you?

Long story short went from 235 lbs and 12% BF to 245 lbs and 7.6%. Gained 30 lbs on the bulk.

Had lot's of help over the last year from the guys over at Isteroids like Shovel and Buf

**JabsDD** · 08-16-2011, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Darkness

I think your PCT will work just fine. My only tweak would be to move aromasin to the back weeks and run it past the SERMS at a lower dose. I dont think you are gonna have any estro at all in your system with that dose of aromasin right at the beginning of PCT. The second tweak is just a safety precation: You might want to start the nolva a week or two behind the clomid. Nolva tends to upregulate Progesterone receptors at breast tissue and having them that close to a 19nor use can spell trouble with gyno. Doesnt always happen but we have seen it work that way. Clomid does not seem to have that to have this effet on PRs.

I think I will give this a try without tapering the SERMS either, the Aromasin at the back end makes a lot of sense to me.

***liftsiron*** · 08-16-2011, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by JabsDD

I think I will give this a try without tapering the SERMS either, the Aromasin at the back end makes a lot of sense to me.

Yeah don't taper the SERMS.
I don't see the sense in running an AI during pct bro because as your exo test levels falls so does the conversion of test to estrogen. It's a myth that post cycle your estrogen level increases. Both test and estrogen levels fall. Running Aromasin post cycle which is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor may cause near elimination of estrogen, which is not good leading to joint pain, poor lipid levels and effect bone health.

**Freezerdude** · 08-16-2011, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by liftsiron

Yeah don't taper the SERMS.
I don't see the sense in running an AI during pct bro because as your exo test levels falls so does the conversion of test to estrogen. It's a myth that post cycle your estrogen level increases. Both test and estrogen levels fall. Running Aromasin post cycle which is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor may cause near elimination of estrogen, which is not good leading to joint pain, poor lipid levels and effect bone health.

^^^ This ^^^

**JabsDD** · 08-16-2011, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by liftsiron

Yeah don't taper the SERMS.
I don't see the sense in running an AI during pct bro because as your exo test levels falls so does the conversion of test to estrogen. It's a myth that post cycle your estrogen level increases. Both test and estrogen levels fall. Running Aromasin post cycle which is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor may cause near elimination of estrogen, which is not good leading to joint pain, poor lipid levels and effect bone health.

I am running Aromasin right now 25 mgs EOD with my HCG to keep elevated estrogen levels in check. I think I am going to keep running the Aromasin until Sunday which will be 4 days after my last HCG shot as I don't want to have any estrogen spill over into PCT.

I have been breaking out a tiny bit on my back and chest starting a few days ago, this must be from the HCG so I'm thinking of running the Aromasin @ 25 mgs ED until Sunday...thoughts?

So new PCT?

Clomid 50/50/50/50/0/0/0/0/0
Nolvadex 0/0/20/20/20/20/0/0/0
Aromasin 0/0/0/0/0/12.5 EOD/12.5 EOD/12.5 EOD/12.5 EOD

**THE-DET-OAK** · 08-16-2011, 12:57 PM

I like aromasin during PCT, ive seen in it action with more than a handful of guys on another site. the ones that use it come back good, the ones that don't come back about 1-200 points lower on TT and the E is always above normal.

I think the real goal of aromasin during PCT is to ward off estrogen dominance, more so than actually control E levels.

Aromasin is not that strong, its only like 12% stronger than adex. there was a study on men with aromasin and 25mg ED kept their levels within normal range after 10 days.

It only has a 27 hour active life though, so daily dosing is important IMO.

here is a good analogy by my friend hummdidly on how aromasin works a little differently than the other 2.

"Perhaps an analogy can help. Pretend you (exemestane) are a hitman in a drug house. However you only have the keys to certain doors in the house. Periodically new people (aromatase) spawn in the rooms. The first run you go through and kill everything and there is lots of killing. The second run through there are less people in the rooms you have access to so the people killed is less. However the people in the locked rooms (dense lipid cells) go on making drugs (estrogen). The house's overall drug production is decreased but since you don't have the keys you can not completely halt the drug production.

Now lets apply that analogy to dosing. When you increase the dosing it is like increasing the number of hitmen and as a result more rooms in the house can be entered. Eventuallly with enough hitmen you could kill the entire population of the house and cease drug production."

^^^ in other words, it would take a ton of aromasin to wipe out estro for most of us.

I honestly think its more important than the SERM. There are more documented studies on AI's and how well they increase T levels on men than SERMS. these are on hypo men with poor functioning HPTA for up to 12 weeks. Their T levels shot into the 7-900 range. I actually sometimes find myself questioning how well SERM's actually work.

just my 2cents.

***liftsiron*** · 08-16-2011, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by THE-DET-OAK

I like aromasin during PCT, ive seen in it action with more than a handful of guys on another site. the ones that use it come back good, the ones that don't come back about 1-200 points lower on TT and the E is always above normal.

just my 2cents.

Here is a study however that backs up what you are saying about an AI increasing testosterone.

Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.
Mauras N, O'Brien KO, Klein KO, Hayes V.
Source

Nemours Research Programs at the Nemours Children's Clinic, Jacksonville, Florida 32207, USA. nmauras@nemours.org
Abstract

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2 concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18% decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal androgen suppression.
Comment in

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Apr;86(4):1836-8.

PMID:
10902781
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Free full text