JUICING AT THE AGE OF 60

[Glycomann]

Where do you get this stuff brutha? You're like a walking, fucking brain.

I do science for a living Hank.

[squatman]

I would not stay on 500 mg/w of test and expect to do it for life. As we age we tend to make more red cells when on test. Look at research by Bhasin. that can predispose to stroke, high BP and other problems. Get regular blood work and preferably get a doc on board that can help you manage your use. TRT is 100 mg/w. 500 mg/w is not something that most older men can tolerate.

AS far as winstrol, people with hereditary angioadema stay on Winstrol for life at a low dose with little effect on blood lipids or other health markers. Personally I think the problem with Winstro lin the AAS community is high doses. Therapeutic dose for humans is 2-4 mg/d during exacerbations and 2 mg every day or EOD for maintenance. For animals its about 50 mg per 40 kg BW/ week. AAS community takes 50-100 mg/d and complain that the drug sucks for lipids and joints. I took 15 mg/d on and off for a decade whilst training at the elite level in my sport. My joints still work. Winstrol causes an increase in C1-inhibitor, a factor involved in the clotting cascades. That's why it's useful for HAE. It will decrease tissue fluids in some tissues so you have to be careful with it. It is also very anabolic as seen in thoroughbred race horses and show animals.

At 15 mg/d i would go from stringy and over trained to hard and shredded in 4 weeks. i was also training 10-12 tinmes a week and working a labor job at the time. I think the problem is people expect to much from it and overdose on it trying to make magic happen. It's a sign of the times. Fuck the work, fuck the diet, increase the dose.

The problem with many IMO!

Great post!

s

[Deacon]

After years of AAS use you no doubt will have a proliferation of AR's beyond what would be normal otherwise, and may need a much higher dose for TRT than someone the same age who never used juice.

I agree but that depends on the user

that said I dont believe that using 500 mgs per week for life will hurt you - not at all - and if you just want to feel good go ahead and run TRT levels of test - but if you want gains and muscle it will have to be higher at least 300 per week andn if running that level pre-disposes you to anything I see little evidence of that other than speculation

and as far as winnie goes I agree with lifts t-bol or var is much safer and much wiser - but IMO anyone over 40 should avoid orals if possible

[Glycomann]

I agree but that depends on the user

that said I dont believe that using 500 mgs per week for life will hurt you - not at all - and if you just want to feel good go ahead and run TRT levels of test - but if you want gains and muscle it will have to be higher at least 300 per week andn if running that level pre-disposes you to anything I see little evidence of that other than speculation

and as far as winnie goes I agree with lifts t-bol or var is much safer and much wiser - but IMO anyone over 40 should avoid orals if possible

Deacon you should really inform yourself before giving advice to a man in his 60s like taking 500 mg/w for life. What you feel or think about the effcts are different from the reality and after all we are dealing with a real person that lives in real world reality. Predisposition is not always the concern. A large percentage of older men have problems with high red cells on even replacement doses and once into the 500 mg/w range the problem is superfluous. Here are 2 articles directly dealing with teh problem.

Here is an excerpt from the second article "Polycythemia is a dose-limiting adverse effect of testosterone therapy. This study shows testosterone treatment of older men has a greater dose-dependent effect on the hemoglobin and hematocrit than treatment in younger men. "

sults: 2
1.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2010 Oct;95(10):4743-7. doi: 10.1210/jc.2010-0864. Epub 2010 Jul 21.
Testosterone suppresses hepcidin in men: a potential mechanism for testosterone-induced erythrocytosis.
Bachman E, Feng R, Travison T, Li M, Olbina G, Ostland V, Ulloor J, Zhang A, Basaria S, Ganz T, Westerman M, Bhasin S.
Source

Department of Medicine, Boston University School of Medicine, 670 Albany Street, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA. eric.bachman@bmc.org
Abstract
CONTEXT:

The mechanisms by which testosterone increases hemoglobin and hematocrit are unknown.
OBJECTIVE:

The aim was to test the hypothesis that testosterone-induced increase in hematocrit is associated with suppression of the iron regulatory peptide hepcidin.
PARTICIPANTS:

Healthy younger men (ages 19-35 yr; n = 53) and older men (ages 59-75 yr; n = 56) were studied.
METHODS:

Weekly doses of testosterone enanthate (25, 50, 125, 300, and 600 mg) were administered over 20 wk, whereas endogenous testosterone was suppressed by monthly GnRH agonist administration. Blood and serum parameters from each individual were measured at wk 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, and 20. Longitudinal analyses were performed to examine the relationship between hepcidin, hemoglobin, hematocrit, and testosterone while controlling for potential confounders.
RESULTS:

High levels of testosterone markedly suppressed serum hepcidin within 1 wk. Hepcidin suppression in response to testosterone administration was dose-dependent in older men and more pronounced than in young men, and this corresponded to a greater rise in hemoglobin in older men. Serum hepcidin levels at 4 and 8 wk were predictive of change in hematocrit from baseline to peak levels.
CONCLUSION:

Testosterone administration is associated with suppression of serum hepcidin. Greater increases in hematocrit in older men during testosterone therapy are related to greater suppression of hepcidin.

PMID:
20660052
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID:
PMC3050108

Free PMC Article
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2.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Mar;93(3):914-9. Epub 2007 Dec 26.
Effects of graded doses of testosterone on erythropoiesis in healthy young and older men.
Coviello AD, Kaplan B, Lakshman KM, Chen T, Singh AB, Bhasin S.
Source

Section of Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Nutrition, Boston University School of Medicine, 670 Albany Street, 2nd Floor, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA. andrea.coviello@bmc.org
Abstract
CONTEXT:

Erythrocytosis is a dose-limiting adverse effect of testosterone therapy, especially in older men.
OBJECTIVE:

Our objective was to compare the dose-related changes in hemoglobin and hematocrit in young and older men and determine whether age-related differences in erythropoietic response to testosterone can be explained by changes in erythropoietin and soluble transferrin receptor (sTfR) levels.
DESIGN:

We conducted a secondary analysis of data from a testosterone dose-response study in young and older men who received long-acting GnRH agonist monthly plus one of five weekly doses of testosterone enanthate (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg im) for 20 wk.
SETTING:

The study took place at a General Clinical Research Center.
PARTICIPANTS:

Participants included 60 older men aged 60-75 yr and 61 young men aged 19-35 yr.
OUTCOME MEASURES:

Outcome measures included hematocrit and hemoglobin and serum erythropoietin and sTfR levels.
RESULTS:

Hemoglobin and hematocrit increased significantly in a linear, dose-dependent fashion in both young and older men in response to graded doses of testosterone (P<0.0001). The increases in hemoglobin and hematocrit were significantly greater in older than young men. There was no significant difference in percent change from baseline in erythropoietin or sTfR levels across groups in either young or older men. Changes in erythropoietin or sTfR levels were not significantly correlated with changes in total or free testosterone levels.
CONCLUSIONS:

Testosterone has a dose-dependent stimulatory effect on erythropoiesis in men that is more pronounced in older men. The testosterone-induced rise in hemoglobin and hematocrit and age-related differences in response to testosterone therapy may be mediated by factors other than erythropoietin and sTfR.

PMID:
18160461
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID:
PMC2266950

[liftsiron]

I don't see the actual Hemoglobin and hematocrit numbers. If an older man has low Hemoglobin and hematocrit, this actually could be a benefit? It's important especially in older individuals using test to get frequent blood work so that they adjust dose if necessary.
Another point is in the study GnRH agonist administration was given to participants. GnRH agonist administration is
used medically to increase hemoglobin and hematocrit in patients before operation, as well as used in treatment of various cancers. So how do the researchers know if it was the test or the GnRH or combination of both that resulted in increased Hemoglobin and hematocrit?

[Glycomann]

I don't see the actual Hemoglobin and hematocrit numbers. If an older man has low Hemoglobin and hematocrit, this actually could a benefit? It's important especially in older individuals using test to get frequent blood work so that they adjust dose if necessary.

See bold type pulled directly from the introduction section of the article. Dose limiting means the proscribed dose must be titrated to keep hematocrit in healthy range. This is in a TRT setting.. Legit TRT setting. I will post the charts tomorrow. I would be remiss in my responsibility to the older members of the community if I didn't point these things out.

[liftsiron]

See bold type pulled directly from the introduction section of the article. Dose limiting means the proscribed dose must be titrated to keep hematocrit in healthy range. This is in a TRT setting.. Legit TRT setting. I will post the charts tomorrow. I would be remiss in my responsibility to the older members of the community if I didn't point these things out.

Another point is in the study GnRH agonist administration was given to participants. GnRH agonist administration is
used medically to increase hemoglobin and hematocrit in patients before operation, as well as used in treatment of various cancers. So how do the researchers know if it was the test or the GnRH or combination of both that resulted in increased Hemoglobin and hematocrit?

[Glycomann]

Another point is in the study GnRH agonist administration was given to participants. GnRH agonist administration is
used medically to increase hemoglobin and hematocrit in patients before operation, as well as used in treatment of various cancers. So how do the researchers know if it was the test or the GnRH or combination of both that resulted in increased Hemoglobin and hematocrit?

The GnRH agonist in this case was used once a month to suppress endogenous testosterone not in a manner to increase testosterone levels so they were not used in the contest you are concerned with. This was done to normalize endogenous production across the test groups to null.

There is a fairly large body of evidence that shows increased hematocrit with increased androgen dose. this should not be a surprise. Testosterone was used in battle field, chemotherapy, and anemia settings to increase RBC production. It is well know to cause polycythemia. That this side effect occurs in older men more frequently and to a greater extent is well documented.

[Glycomann]

Here are a few abstracts. these are all in the context of TRT level treatment ranges.


1.
Br J Haematol. 2000 Jul;110(1):237-8.
Polycythaemia as a complication of transdermal testosterone therapy.
Viallard JF, Marit G, Mercié P, Leng B, Reiffers J, Pellegrin JL.

PMID:
10931008
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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2.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2004 Jan;60(1):143-5.
Reversal of polycythaemia induced by intramuscular androgen replacement using transdermal testosterone therapy.
Siddique H, Smith JC, Corrall RJ.

PMID:
14678301
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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3.
Expert Opin Drug Saf. 2004 Nov;3(6):599-606.
Risks of testosterone replacement therapy in ageing men.
Tan RS, Salazar JA.
Source

Baylor College of Medicine and University of Texas Houston, Michael E. DeBakey VA Medical Center, Texas, USA. robert.s.tan@uth.tmc.edu
Abstract

Testosterone has been available to practitioners for several decades. However, testosterone prescriptions have increased in recent years partly because of the introduction of newer delivery systems that are topical and have good bioavailability. In the US alone, approximately 2 million prescriptions for testosterone were written in 2002. This represents a 30% increase from 2001 and a 170% increase from 1999. There has also been a 500% increase in prescription sales in the past 10 years. The rise in prescriptions may be in part due to the increasing recognition of hypogonadism in ageing males or andropause. Treatment relating to hypogonadism has relieved symptoms and improved the quality of life of many individuals. Epidemiological studies point toward an association with increased morbidity and mortality, with low testosterone states in ageing males. For example, there is a higher prevalence of depression, coronary heart disease, osteoporosis, fracture rates, frailty and even dementia with low testosterone states. Recently, there have been some concerns raised regarding the long-term safety of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) from the Institute of Medicine. Current evidence suggests no causal relationship between prostate cancer and physiological dosing of testosterone, especially with careful selection and monitoring of patients. Cardiovascular risks have, overall, been neutral, although suggestions have been made that there are positive vasodilatory properties with testosterone. Mild eythrocytosis can be a common side effect of TRT, but thromboembolic events have rarely been reported in the literature. This paper addresses the evidence to date regarding the safety aspects of TRT. The medical-legal implications of TRT for men at this point in time is also discussed.

PMID:
15500418
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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4.
Rev Urol. 2003;5 Suppl 1:S22-8.
The androgen-deficient aging male: current treatment options.
Tenover JL.
Abstract

All delivery forms of testosterone should be equally efficacious in treating the androgen-deficient aging male if adequate serum testosterone levels are obtained. The testosterone preparations available in North America include the oral undecanoate, injectable testosterone esters, the scrotal patch, the nonscrotal transdermal patch, and the transdermal gels. Selection of a specific testosterone preparation for replacement therapy depends on many factors, including the magnitude and pattern of serum testosterone levels produced, side effects of the particular formulation, reversibility if an adverse event should occur, convenience of use, cosmetic issues related to the preparation, and cost. In addition, potential adverse effects of testosterone therapy applicable to all forms of testosterone delivery, such as fluid retention, gynecomastia, polycythemia, worsening of sleep apnea, change in cardiovascular-disease risk, or alterations in prostate health, need to be considered both prior to therapy and during treatment monitoring.

PMID:
16985939
[PubMed]
PMCID:
PMC1502321

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5.
Clin Calcium. 2007 Sep;17(9):1414-8.
[Hormone replacement Up-to-date. Clinical practice of androgen replacement therapy].
[Article in Japanese]
Kawa G, Matsuda T.
Source

Kansai Medical University, Department of Urology and Andrology, Japan.
Abstract

Androgen replacement therapy (ART) should be considered for initial treatment of late-onset hypogonadism. Intramuscular injection of testosterone enanthate is frequently used for ART in Japan. Prior to ART, it is necessary to measure prostate specific antigen (PSA) in order to rule out prostate cancer, and hematological examination should be performed periodically during treatment to monitor for polycythemia.

PMID:
17767032
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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6.
Clin Interv Aging. 2007;2(4):561-6.
Testosterone replacement therapy for older men.
Borst SE, Mulligan T.
Source

Geriatrics Research, Education, and Clinical Center, North Florida/South Georgia Veterans Health System, Gainesville, FL, USA. seborst@ufl.edu
Abstract

Despite intensive research on testosterone therapy for older men, important questions remain unanswered. The evidence clearly indicates that many older men display a partial androgen deficiency. In older men, low circulating testosterone is correlated with low muscle strength, with high adiposity, with insulin resistance and with poor cognitive performance. Testosterone replacement in older men has produced benefits, but not consistently so. The inconsistency may arise from differences in the dose and duration of testosterone treatment, as well as selection of the target population. Generally, studies reporting anabolic responses to testosterone have employed higher doses of testosterone for longer treatment periods and have targeted older men whose baseline circulating bioavailable testosterone levels were low. Most studies of testosterone replacement have reported anabolic that are modest compared to what can be achieved with resistance exercise training. However, several strategies currently under evaluation have the potential to produce greater anabolic effects and to do so in a safe manner. At this time, testosterone therapy can not be recommended for the general population of older men. Older men who are hypogonadal are at greater risk for the catabolic effects associated with a number of acute and chronic medical conditions. Future research is likely to reveal benefits of testosterone therapy for some of these special populations. Testosterone therapy produces a number of adverse effects, including worsening of sleep apnea, gynecomastia, polycythemia and elevation of PSA. Efficacy and adverse effects should be assessed frequently throughout the course of therapy.

PMID:
18225456
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID:
PMC2686341

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7.
Clin Interv Aging. 2009;4:397-412. Epub 2009 Nov 18.
Safety and efficacy of testosterone gel in the treatment of male hypogonadism.
Lakshman KM, Basaria S.
Source

Section of Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Nutrition, Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center, Boston, MA 02118, USA.
Abstract

Transdermal testosterone gels were first introduced in the US in 2000. Since then, they have emerged as a favorable mode of testosterone substitution. Serum testosterone levels reach a steady-state in the first 24 hours of application and remain in the normal range for the duration of the application. This pharmacokinetic profile is comparable to that of testosterone patch but superior to injectable testosterone esters that are associated with peaks and troughs with each dose. Testosterone gels are as efficacious as patches and injectable forms in their effects on sexual function and mood. Anticipated increases in prostate-specific antigen with testosterone therapy are not significantly different with testosterone gels, and the risk of polycythemia is lower than injectable modalities. Application site reactions, a major drawback of testosterone patches, occur less frequently with testosterone gels. However, inter-personal transfer is a concern if appropriate precautions are not taken. Superior tolerability and dose flexibility make testosterone gel highly desirable over other modalities of testosterone replacement. Androgel and Testim, the two currently available testosterone gel products in the US, have certain brand-specific properties that clinicians may consider prior to prescribing.

PMID:
19966909
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID:
PMC2785864

[Dawgpound_Hank]

The GnRH agonist in this case was used once a month to suppress endogenous testosterone not in a manner to increase testosterone levels so they were not used in the contest you are concerned with. This was done to normalize endogenous production across the test groups to null.

There is a fairly large body of evidence that shows increased hematocrit with increased androgen dose. this should not be a surprise. Testosterone was used in battle field, chemotherapy, and anemia settings to increase RBC production. It is well know to cause polycythemia. That this side effect occurs in older men more frequently and to a greater extent is well documented.

Damn it you beat me to it - was just gonna say that.

[liftsiron]

This says a lot right here. "Epidemiological studies point toward an association with increased morbidity and mortality, with low testosterone states in ageing males. For example, there is a higher prevalence of depression, coronary heart disease, osteoporosis, fracture rates, frailty and even dementia with low testosterone states."

I'm a firm believer that TRT medically prescribed or self induced improves quality of live dramatically! Like I stated before monitor bp and get frequent blood work.

[Glycomann]

This says a lot right here. "Epidemiological studies point toward an association with increased morbidity and mortality, with low testosterone states in ageing males. For example, there is a higher prevalence of depression, coronary heart disease, osteoporosis, fracture rates, frailty and even dementia with low testosterone states."

I'm a firm believer that TRT medically prescribed or self induced improves quality of live dramatically! Like I stated before monitor bp and get frequent blood work.

I agree with that statement. I'm not refuting the idea that TRT is beneficial. What I am trying to get across is that high doses, those above a well monitored TRT dose, in older men can be problematic. 500 mg/w is on the order of 5 times a replacement dose. That there is a tendency for older men to develop erythrocytosis and polycythemia with increasing dose it is not wise for older men to cavalierly administer such doses regularly as in for life as suggested. Monitoring is key here and for some 1/2 a gram for any length of time may be problematic.

We are in agreement about monitoring.

[liftsiron]

I agree with that statement. I'm not refuting the idea that TRT is beneficial. What I am trying to get across is that high doses, those above a well monitored TRT dose, in older men can be problematic. 500 mg/w is on the order of 5 times a replacement dose. That there is a tendency for older men to develop erythrocytosis and polycythemia with increasing dose it is not wise for older men to cavalierly administer such doses regularly as in for life as suggested. Monitoring is key here and for some 1/2 a gram for any length of time may be problematic.

We are in agreement about monitoring.

I agree self induced TRT w/o monitoring is hap hazard and could lead to problems especially in individuals with under lying medical conditions.

[bufbiker]

I don't understand much of this but it makes me feel smart just to be reading it!

[Landru]

Very well done by both. You guys know your shit.
I stopped the Winstrol as suggested by this board. I am off two weeks now. I am wondering if my test levels will still be low. I am making an appointment for blood work hoping the doc will add the test to be checked.
If that shows up normal, Well . . . enough said .