parabolan or tren/enanthate

[house1]

i am trying to get my shit together for cutting-- which would be better

tren enanthate or parabolan ---

will be running var, gh, igf1 [if rcs ever gets back to me] test, and either tren -enanthate or parabolan

[liftsiron]

I know from previous experience that para is kick ass, but I never ran tren enanthe, so I can't compare the two.

[house1]

thanks lifts

[motoxxxguy]

They're nearly identical, just different esters of trenbolone. I would probably go with tren enanthate myself, as it is usually available in much more user-friendly doses, meaning higher concentrations.

-moto

[Easto]

Para is EXPENSIVE!!!!!

Go with Tren Enan

[liftsiron]

Originally posted by Easto
Para is EXPENSIVE!!!!!

Go with Tren Enan

I remember it as being wonderful though

[Easto]

Originally posted by instynct999
it is actually worse

there is speculation that that particular ester was the root of the kidney distress related to tren

it is NOT tren itself and acetate and enan IMO do not exhibit this

Originally posted by instynct999
I made the speculation with my limited knowlege of ester struyctures and the appearance of lack of both liver and kidney distress to any appreciable degree with acetate and surmised that the Parabolan ester was largely responsible

frinds who have PhDs in these discplines confirmed that it made sense

anyway there is certaiunly nothoing Good about the ester as an ester is just cleaved anyway--be smarty and get what is most economical--acetate has more tren pe 100mg anyway and enanthate if wanted a long ester is a better ester IMO for solubility

What do you guys think about these quotes from Instynct?

[house1]

very interesting easto-- has credibility coming from instynct

[motoxxxguy]

That is interesting. It would make sense, since the old-school idea that tren is toxic to the kidneys is just not true. With the hexahydrobenzylcarbonate ester being absent from the market for a while, it allowed some time for some people to realize that this toxicity idea wasn't true. Other's still swear that it is, but that's another topic. I guess with the recent re-emergence of parabolon to the market by Negma, we may see some kidney related problems being discussed!

While not gospel, I would take instynct's word on this subject as a fact.

-moto

[JohnnyB]

enan's cheaper, but I'll habe to give para a run at least once

JohnnyB

[liftsiron]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by instynct999
I made the speculation with my limited knowlege of ester struyctures and the appearance of lack of both liver and kidney distress to any appreciable degree with acetate and surmised that the Parabolan ester was largely responsible

frinds who have PhDs in these discplines confirmed that it made sense

anyway there is certaiunly nothoing Good about the ester as an ester is just cleaved anyway--be smarty and get what is most economical--acetate has more tren pe 100mg anyway and enanthate if wanted a long ester is a better ester IMO for solubility
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can't blindly subscribe to the ester theory either. I don't think that it was ever proven to be a fact that para placed any more undue stress on the kidney's than tren acetate. Without facts to back up that it did, it may be no than rumor.

[jcp2]

Originally posted by DRveejay11
Good luck House: when you starting?

Well, doc that is not the only place i have heard it. I don't remember why but i will try and get some more info.

[liftsiron]

A little more food for thought:


On The Issue Of Tren Toxicity (post #1)

I wanted to share this with everyone on Elite because this is a question I see commonly asked on the boards. This is Author L. Rea's commentary on trenbolone toxicity and first appeared on www.anabolicbeast.com.

Question: I've got the following problem: In many books(including CME, WAR) I can read trenbolone is quite toxic, and you should use low dosages for short periods. I now some people who used Parabolan pissed blood. BUT I can also r
Question: I've got the following problem: In many books(including CME, WAR) I can read trenbolone is quite toxic, and you should use low dosages for short periods. I now some people who used Parabolan pissed blood. BUT I can also read that trenbolone isn't toxic (Bill Roberts: WAR revisited):

"I have found no indication in the scientific literature of particular kidney toxicity with trenbolone. I know of a number of users, at doses of typically 50 mg/day, who have experienced no problems. There are however anecdotal claims of kidney problems. It seems to me, however, that this is occurring only with athletes stacking an incredible amount of drugs, and how the blame can fairly be laid at trenbolone (actually at Parabolan, not trenbolone acetate) is not clear."
In Anabolics 2002 nor William Llewellyn mentioned anything about this toxicity.

I know people using trenbolone acetate 100mg/day for 10weeks without any problem. Just see Nevertoobig's stack: he uses 100mg trenbolone acetate ED.

As I know liver toxicity is in connection with the hexahydrobenzylcarbonate ester and it can be a problem with Parabolan but you don't have to worry if you uses other ester like acetate. So what is the truth? And if I'm right why was finajet so toxic? Just because it was for animals and the oil was not clear enough?

Answer: Trenbolone acetate preperations are toxic to both liver and kidney tissue. The extent is a matter of period of administration for the most part. The reasons are strange but true.

At one time there were the many black-ead that trenbolone isn't toxic (Bill Roberts: WAR revisited):

"I have found no indication in the scientific literature of particular kidney toxicity with trenbolone. I know of a number of users, at doses of typically 50 mg/day, who have experienced no problems. There are however anecdotal claims of kidney problems. It seems to me, however, that this is occurring only with athletes stacking an incredible amount of drugs, and how the blame can fairly be laid at trenbolone (actually at Parabolan, not trenbolone acetate) is not clear."
In Anabolics 2002 nor William Llewellyn mentioned anything about this toxicity.

I know people using trenbolone acetate 100mg/day for 10weeks without any problem. Just see Nevertoobig's stack: he uses 100mg trenbolone acetate ED.

As I know liver toxicity is in connection with the hexahydrobenzylcarbonate ester and it can be a problem with Parabolan but you don't have to worry if you uses other ester like acetate. So what is the truth? And if I'm right why was finajet so toxic? Just because it was for animals and the oil was not clear enough?

Answer: Trenbolone acetate preperations are toxic to both liver and kidney tissue. The extent is a matter of period of administration for the most part. The reasons are strange but true.

At one time there were the many black-market preperations of Finaplix, FinaJect and others. Most of these contained simple ground Finaplex-H implants...as most are painfully aware. With the process (if you can refer to a caveman approach as a process. The idea of "I have a rock and can make my own AAS" is not a good one) came many foreign non-kidney-friendly materials, some of which were non-soluable. The use of Fina-kits eleminated some of the material concerns due to the use of benzyl alcohol as a solvent to seperate the binders from the AAS in Finaplex-H implants. But there is another concern. The EOD or ED administration of trenbolone acetate preperations also means an accumulation of benzyl alcohol (which is quite high in these kits). Personally I felt that in itself this would not be a huge concern. Unfortunately athlete liver and kidney stress markers consistantly showed in those who utilized the drug. (A little research to discuss)

TR-343
Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Benzyl Alcohol (CAS No. 100-51-6) in F344/N Rats and B6C3F1 Mice (Gavage Studies)
Chemical Formula: C7H8O - 3D Structure*

Toxicology and carcinogenesis studies of technical-grade benzyl alcohol (99% pure), a textile dye additive, solvent, and food flavoring agent, were conducted by administering the chemical by gavage in corn oil vehicle to groups of F34market preperations of Finaplix, FinaJect and others. Most of these contained simple ground Finaplex-H implants...as most are painfully aware. With the process (if you can refer to a caveman approach as a process. The idea of "I have a rock and can make my own AAS" is not a good one) came many foreign non-kidney-friendly materials, some of which were non-soluable. The use of Fina-kits eleminated some of the material concerns due to the use of benzyl alcohol as a solvent to seperate the binders from the AAS in Finaplex-H implants. But there is another concern. The EOD or ED administration of trenbolone acetate preperations also means an accumulation of benzyl alcohol (which is quite high in these kits). Personally I felt that in itself this would not be a huge concern. Unfortunately athlete liver and kidney stress markers consistantly showed in those who utilized the drug. (A little research to discuss)

TR-343
Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Benzyl Alcohol (CAS No. 100-51-6) in F344/N Rats and B6C3F1 Mice (Gavage Studies)
Chemical Formula: C7H8O - 3D Structure*

Toxicology and carcinogenesis studies of technical-grade benzyl alcohol (99% pure), a textile dye additive, solvent, and food flavoring agent, were conducted by administering the chemical by gavage in corn oil vehicle to groups of F344/N rats and B6C3F1 mice of each sex for 16 days, 13 weeks, or 2 years.

Short-Term Studies:
In 16-day studies, all five male and five female rats and mice dosed with 2,000 mg/kg benzyl alcohol died. Two of five male and 3/5 female rats and 1/5 male and 2/5 female mice dosed with 1,000 mg/kg died. Rats and mice of each sex in the two highest dose groups were lethargic after dosing. Other toxic responses to benzyl alcohol in these dose groups included blood around the mouth and nose, subcutaneous hemorrhages, and blood in the urinary and gastrointestinal tracts of rats and blood in the urinary bladder of mice. Animals administered lower doses of benzyl alcohol (125, 250, or 500 mg/kg) had no compound-related histologic lesions.

Doses selected for the 13-week studies were 0, 50, 100, 200, 400, and 800 mg/kg for rats and mice. Eight of 10 male rats dosed with 800 mg/kg died during weeks 7 and 8; four of these deaths were described as gavage related. Rats dosed with 800 mg/kg exhibited clinical signs indicative of neurotoxicity including staggering, respiratory difficulty, and lethargy. Hemorrhages occurred around the mouth and nose, and there were histologic lesions in the brain, thymus, skeletal muscle, and kidney.

In truth I now feel that it is the accumulative benzyl alcohol that had altered the li4/N rats and B6C3F1 mice of each sex for 16 days, 13 weeks, or 2 years.

Short-Term Studies:
In 16-day studies, all five male and five female rats and mice dosed with 2,000 mg/kg benzyl alcohol died. Two of five male and 3/5 female rats and 1/5 male and 2/5 female mice dosed with 1,000 mg/kg died. Rats and mice of each sex in the two highest dose groups were lethargic after dosing. Other toxic responses to benzyl alcohol in these dose groups included blood around the mouth and nose, subcutaneous hemorrhages, and blood in the urinary and gastrointestinal tracts of rats and blood in the urinary bladder of mice. Animals administered lower doses of benzyl alcohol (125, 250, or 500 mg/kg) had no compound-related histologic lesions.

Doses selected for the 13-week studies were 0, 50, 100, 200, 400, and 800 mg/kg for rats and mice. Eight of 10 male rats dosed with 800 mg/kg died during weeks 7 and 8; four of these deaths were described as gavage related. Rats dosed with 800 mg/kg exhibited clinical signs indicative of neurotoxicity including staggering, respiratory difficulty, and lethargy. Hemorrhages occurred around the mouth and nose, and there were histologic lesions in the brain, thymus, skeletal muscle, and kidney.

In truth I now feel that it is the accumulative benzyl alcohol that had altered the liver and kidney markers disfavorably far more so than the trenbolone itself. One must remember that the amount of benzyl alcohol in 1ml of most kit preperations is several times higher than an entire 10ml vial of testosterone enanthate.

[liftsiron]

http://www.premiermuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2511

[liftsiron]

by Bill Roberts - Parabolan is trenbolone cyclohexylmethylcarbonate. The half-life of a steroid ester is mostly dependent on its ratio of fat solubility to water solubility: the longer chain the ester, the higher this ratio, and the longer the half-life. This particular carbonate could be most closely compared with an enanthate ester; the half-life is probably a little less than week.

An amp (76 mg trenbolone cyclohexylmethylcarbonate) is comparable only to 58 mg of trenbolone acetate. (The acetate is a little moparticular carbonate could be most closely compared with an enanthate ester; the half-life is probably a little less than week.

An amp (76 mg trenbolone cyclohexylmethylcarbonate) is comparable only to 58 mg of trenbolone acetate. (The acetate is a little more potent, more effective per milligram, because the acetate ester is lighter and therefore a higher percentage of the weight is trenbolone.)

The properties of Parabolan are the same as trenbolone acetate (Finaject) except for longer half life. While Finaject itself is no longer available, in some cases injectable preparations from Finaplix have been made. The substance is the same: trenbolone acetate.

There is no evidence in the literature, nor I think practical evidence, that trenbolone acetate has a "special role" in burning fat. Rather, it is an extraordinarily potent AAS, being about three times as effective per milligram as testosterone esters. For this reason, any property which anabolic steroids have, trenbolone acetate will demonstrate more strongly per milligram.

I have found no indication in the scientific literature of particular kidney toxicity with trenbolone. I know of a number of users, at doses of typically 50 mg/day, who have experienced no problems. There are however anecdotal claims of kidney problems. It seems to me, however, that this is occurring only with athletes stacking an incredible amount of drugs, and how the blame can fairly be laid at trenbolone (actually at Parabolan, not trenbolone acetate) is not clear.

It is also not clear that trenbolone results in any greater dere potent, more effective per milligram, because the acetate ester is lighter and therefore a higher percentage of the weight is trenbolone.)

The properties of Parabolan are the same as trenbolone acetate (Finaject) except for longer half life. While Finaject itself is no longer available, in some cases injectable preparations from Finaplix have been made. The substance is the same: trenbolone acetate.

There is no evidence in the literature, nor I think practical evidence, that trenbolone acetate has a "special role" in burning fat. Rather, it is an extraordinarily potent AAS, being about three times as effective per milligram as testosterone esters. For this reason, any property which anabolic steroids have, trenbolone acetate will demonstrate more strongly per milligram.

I have found no indication in the scientific literature of particular kidney toxicity with trenbolone. I know of a number of users, at doses of typically 50 mg/day, who have experienced no problems. There are however anecdotal claims of kidney problems. It seems to me, however, that this is occurring only with athletes stacking an incredible amount of drugs, and how the blame can fairly be laid at trenbolone (actually at Parabolan, not trenbolone acetate) is not clear.

It is also not clear that trenbolone results in any greater degree of increased aggression for a given amount of anabolic effect than testosterone itself does. However, on a per milligram basis, it undoubtedly does. The substance does not cause uncontrollable "roid rage" despite the hype to that effect often seen.