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Hey posted this at AU and steroidology and I also wanted to contribute here so here is my rough draft of an article on insulin
Insulin beyond the basics
Will insulin make me fat if I eat fat after taking it?
The simple answer is no. Insulin will make you fat if you eat too many calories for you body’s needs while it is active. Just like eating more calories than you need make you fat.
Over and over in insulin threads this motto is stated, “If you eat fat after you inject slin then it will automatically store it as fat.” That is foolishness. First a little about how insulin acts in the body.
Insulin and Lipid Metabolism
The metabolic pathways for utilization of fats and carbohydrates are deeply and intricately intertwined. Considering insulin's profound effects on carbohydrate metabolism, it stands to reason that insulin also has important effects on lipid metabolism. Notable effects of insulin on lipid metabolism include the following:
* Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. As discussed above, insulin is stimulatory to synthesis of glycogen in the liver. However, as glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), further synthesis is strongly suppressed.
When the liver is saturated with glycogen, any additional glucose taken up by hepatocytes is shunted into pathways leading to synthesis of fatty acids, which are exported from the liver as lipoproteins. The lipoproteins are ripped apart in the circulation, providing free fatty acids for use in other tissues, including adipocytes, which use them to synthesize triglyceride.
* Insulin inhibits breakdown of fat in adipose tissue by inhibiting the intracellular lipase that hydrolyzes triglycerides to release fatty acids.
Insulin facilitates entry of glucose into adipocytes, and within those cells, glucose can be used to synthesize glycerol. This glycerol, along with the fatty acids delivered from the liver, are used to synthesize triglyceride within the adipocyte. By these mechanisms, insulin is involved in further accumulation of triglyceride in fat cells.
We can see here the description of insulin as a shuttling agent that will just shove whatever you give it in a similar tissue type is wrong. Insulin motivates the use of nutrients available to the body. When insulin begins decreasing the levels of glucose in the blood it shuttles them to muscle tissue, the brain and the liver. When the muscles and brain are saturated the liver begins storing glucose. This is the stage that causes problems. When the liver becomes saturated with glucose (roughly 5% of its weight) it will begin shuttling the excess glucose into adipose tissue. This is where fat storage begins.
So how do we avoid getting fat from insulin?
It is easy, know your body. This is a perquisite for using insulin or aas in the first place. We want to give our body the amount of energy it needs to recover. And we want to be sure to not give it too uch or it will begin making fat very efficiently.
How many carbs and how much protein should I consume after the shot?
What does your body need after a work out?
The body stores approximately 450-550 grams of glycogen within the muscle and liver for use during exercise. However it is worth note that his entails the entire body. Since most of us focus on two body parts the amount of glucose used will be significantly less.
The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. Unfortunately this study didn’t look at muscle gain or including protein in the equation. It was also not looking specifically at a situation where extra insulin was injected. With the body’s natural way of handling calories we can be a bit more forgiving as it will have less insulin to store nutrients/fat/glucose, so the 1.85 is going to be too high for most insulin users. I suspect the results of this are due to the continued presence of insulin in response to the carbs, with us injecting it however we won’t need as many carbs to keep the insulin levels high, but we should consume carbs spread out over this 5 hour window to feed the insulin we injected in conjunction with the body’s natural recovery.
This formula has been tried both scientifically and in gyms around the world.
Carbohydrates: 0.8-1.0 g/kg of bodyweight
Protein: 0.4-0.6 g/kg of bodyweight
You will notice that once someone gets around 200lb then they are consuming about 100 grams of carbs. I suggest this is a good amount for the entire hour before a good meal. Drink 60% of that total immediately and split the rest up into 3 drinks every 15 minutes. Within an hour of the shot you should have a more solid meal. I suggest going a bit above this perhaps to 1.2 g/kg for carbs and .8-.9 g/kg for protein since insulin will enable the body to store more glucose. If this works for you great, if you still feel hypo or think you work out hard enough to justify more than increase it slowly and see how your body reacts. Also factor in the role of AAS that will increase glucose uptake such as deca
It is now that many people become hyper sensitive to eating fat. Fearing the fat will go directly to their hips and destroy the body they are working so hard for.
Using fat as a fuel for glycogen replacement is nearly impossible for three reasons. First the conversion of fat to energy requires the input of energy (which our body is low on post work out), it requires oxygen to convert (again we are likely oxygen deprived by the end of a good work out) and most importantly the carbon in fats CANNOT be used by the body to create glycogen of any type. It is also worth reminding ourselves that insulin tries to preserve fat.
It is for this reason I think fat has no place in a post workout or post insulin shot environment. The calories simply can’t be used for what we want. Not because it automatically gets turned into fat.
How do I eat while on insulin then?
We have determined the individual and combined effects of insulin and prior exercise on leg muscle protein synthesis and degradation, amino acid transport, glucose uptake, and alanine metabolism. Normal volunteers were studied in the post absorptive state at rest and about 3 h after a heavy leg resistance exercise routine. The leg arteriovenous balance technique was used in combination with stable isotopic tracers of amino acids and biopsies of the vastus lateralis muscle. Insulin was infused into a femoral artery to increase the leg insulin concentrations to high physiologic levels without substantively affecting the whole-body level. Protein synthesis and degradation were determined as rates of intramuscular phenylalanine utilization and appearance, and muscle fractional synthetic rate (FSR) was also determined. Leg blood flow was greater after exercise than at rest (P<0.05). Insulin accelerated blood flow at rest but not after exercise (P<0.05). The rates of protein synthesis and degradation were greater during the postexercise recovery (65+/-10 and 74+/-10 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively) than at rest (30+/-7 and 46+/-8 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively; P<0.05). Insulin infusion increased protein synthesis at rest (51+/-4 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) but not during the postexercise recovery (64+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume; P<0.05). Insulin infusion at rest did not change the rate of protein degradation (48+/-3 nmol x min(-1) 100 ml(-1) leg volume). In contrast, insulin infusion after exercise significantly decreased the rate of protein degradation (52+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume). The insulin stimulatory effects on inward alanine transport and glucose uptake were three times greater during the postexercise recovery than at rest (P<0.05). In contrast, the insulin effects on phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine transport were similar at rest and after exercise. In conclusion, the ability of insulin to stimulate glucose uptake and alanine transport and to suppress protein degradation in skeletal muscle is increased after resistance exercise. Decreased amino acid availability may limit the stimulatory effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
The long and short of the article is this, insulin plays two very different roles post work out and pre work out.
Post work out it decreases protein degradation from: (74+/-10 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) to (52+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) but does not increase synthesis. This means the need for protein in a post workout and post insulin shot shake does not go up from non injection work outs, and may go down by there is no reason to go with less protein.
Insulin shots taken at times other than post work out, such as upon awakening or through out the day have a very different need though. Here protein synthesis is increased from (30+/-7 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) to (51+/-4 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) while degradation remains unchanged. We can safely say that you should increase your protein intake while using insulin during non-post work out situations.
To sum it up, take in high carbs and moderate protein post work out. Take a large amount post shot and keep a bit and sip on in every 15 minutes until your big meal. When using insulin on off days or upon waking keep the protein high to feed the muscle growth it causes. And keep fat as low as possible, especially post work out.
Dosing
If you are reading this section to apply the dosing, I assume you have used insulin before and are familiar with its effects. If not then start at 3 IU and work up to 10 for your first cycle to get used to it. And go read Monster’s insulin primer!
Most of us want to gain as much muscle and as little fat as possible from any drug we use, insulin will be no different. So what is the best dose when considering the balance of muscle gain to fat gain? In research for this article I decided to push the limit of insulin to see how insane doses would affect me and gains. I maxed at using 100 IU post work out for 2 weeks. Definitely STUPID! I tapered down over the next few weeks through 70, 60,50, 40, 30, 20,10 IU post work out. I noticed that around 30 IU on leg day was a good total for me, a little fat gain but nothing horrible. With the use of AAS and or t3 this would likely be eliminated. It also made sense to use more insulin for larger muscle groups (thanks bronco!
. With out the use of AAS or t3 20 IU on leg day would be a perfect number for me and 15 IU on a day where I worked traps and delts. If you do cardio before a work out it would be safe to add 4-10 IU depending on the intensity and your metabolism. For those huge beasts out there or people with great metabolisms then even 40 IU if you are doing a heavy cycle wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility. Just watch your body for two things. First for fat gain. If you start picking up fat drop the dose. Next is hypo feelings after the typical duration of the insulin you are using. When I was at 40+ IU the normal 4 hour duration of Hum-r lasted longer, up to 8 hours at 100IU.
Types of Insulin and Shooting methods.
A lot of bros prefer Humalog because of its quick onset and exit from the body. These are exactly the reasons I don’t like it. I prefer the longer action of Humulin-R. If you want a quick onset, then inject the Hum-R IM. IM injections also reduce the amount of insulin that makes it into the blood stream so an additional IU or two wouldn’t hurt.
If you are on an AAS cycle or using GH then using Hum-N (a long acting gentle insulin) would be great for gains. Shooting 10 IU upon waking will let the protein synthesis last all day. Keep carbs handy at all times though just incase you get hypo.
Other tidbits
DON”T GO HYPOGLYCEMIC
Besides being a step away from death it is bad for your test and LH levels
Hypoandrogenemia is frequently associated with hyperinsulinemia in men with the metabolic syndrome. We questioned whether insulin or changes in blood glucose levels influence pituitary gonadotropin secretion or testicular steroidogenesis in healthy men. Also, the relationship between hypoglycemia-induced activation of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis and altered steroidogenesis was examined. Euglycemic and hypoglycemic clamp experiments were performed in 30 healthy men over a period of 6 h. Half of the men were infused with insulin at a rate of 1.5 mU/min.kg; the other half were infused at a rate of 15.0 mU/min.kg. Plasma glucose was held constant during a euglycemic clamp session and was decreased stepwise in a hypoglycemic clamp session. LH and total/free T concentrations decreased under hypoglycemic conditions regardless of the rate of insulin infusion. With euglycemic conditions, LH and T levels remained unchanged. Dehydroepiandrosterone concentrations increased during hypoglycemia, but not during the euglycemic conditions. The FSH concentration was not affected by insulin or glycemic clamps. Hypoglycemia acutely suppresses T secretion, and this effect is apparently mediated by pituitary LH. Insulin is ineffective. As counterregulation to hypoglycemia begins at normoglycemic ranges in poorly controlled type 2 diabetes and probably also in patients with long-term perturbed glucose regulation in the metabolic syndrome, control of glucose-responsive neurons in the brain may contribute to hypoandrogenemia. Apart from down-regulation of hypothalamic release of GnRH, concurrent activation of the pituitary-adrenal axis (i.e. increased release of dehydroepiandrosterone) may add to the suppressive effect of hypoglycemia on gonadal steroidogenesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...2&dopt=Abstract
Yet another reason to sip carbs after a shot and not wait to feel shaky to drink.
Insulin beyond the basics
Will insulin make me fat if I eat fat after taking it?
The simple answer is no. Insulin will make you fat if you eat too many calories for you body’s needs while it is active. Just like eating more calories than you need make you fat.
Over and over in insulin threads this motto is stated, “If you eat fat after you inject slin then it will automatically store it as fat.” That is foolishness. First a little about how insulin acts in the body.
Insulin and Lipid Metabolism
The metabolic pathways for utilization of fats and carbohydrates are deeply and intricately intertwined. Considering insulin's profound effects on carbohydrate metabolism, it stands to reason that insulin also has important effects on lipid metabolism. Notable effects of insulin on lipid metabolism include the following:
* Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. As discussed above, insulin is stimulatory to synthesis of glycogen in the liver. However, as glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), further synthesis is strongly suppressed.
When the liver is saturated with glycogen, any additional glucose taken up by hepatocytes is shunted into pathways leading to synthesis of fatty acids, which are exported from the liver as lipoproteins. The lipoproteins are ripped apart in the circulation, providing free fatty acids for use in other tissues, including adipocytes, which use them to synthesize triglyceride.
* Insulin inhibits breakdown of fat in adipose tissue by inhibiting the intracellular lipase that hydrolyzes triglycerides to release fatty acids.
Insulin facilitates entry of glucose into adipocytes, and within those cells, glucose can be used to synthesize glycerol. This glycerol, along with the fatty acids delivered from the liver, are used to synthesize triglyceride within the adipocyte. By these mechanisms, insulin is involved in further accumulation of triglyceride in fat cells.
We can see here the description of insulin as a shuttling agent that will just shove whatever you give it in a similar tissue type is wrong. Insulin motivates the use of nutrients available to the body. When insulin begins decreasing the levels of glucose in the blood it shuttles them to muscle tissue, the brain and the liver. When the muscles and brain are saturated the liver begins storing glucose. This is the stage that causes problems. When the liver becomes saturated with glucose (roughly 5% of its weight) it will begin shuttling the excess glucose into adipose tissue. This is where fat storage begins.
So how do we avoid getting fat from insulin?
It is easy, know your body. This is a perquisite for using insulin or aas in the first place. We want to give our body the amount of energy it needs to recover. And we want to be sure to not give it too uch or it will begin making fat very efficiently.
How many carbs and how much protein should I consume after the shot?
What does your body need after a work out?
The body stores approximately 450-550 grams of glycogen within the muscle and liver for use during exercise. However it is worth note that his entails the entire body. Since most of us focus on two body parts the amount of glucose used will be significantly less.
The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. Unfortunately this study didn’t look at muscle gain or including protein in the equation. It was also not looking specifically at a situation where extra insulin was injected. With the body’s natural way of handling calories we can be a bit more forgiving as it will have less insulin to store nutrients/fat/glucose, so the 1.85 is going to be too high for most insulin users. I suspect the results of this are due to the continued presence of insulin in response to the carbs, with us injecting it however we won’t need as many carbs to keep the insulin levels high, but we should consume carbs spread out over this 5 hour window to feed the insulin we injected in conjunction with the body’s natural recovery.
This formula has been tried both scientifically and in gyms around the world.
Carbohydrates: 0.8-1.0 g/kg of bodyweight
Protein: 0.4-0.6 g/kg of bodyweight
You will notice that once someone gets around 200lb then they are consuming about 100 grams of carbs. I suggest this is a good amount for the entire hour before a good meal. Drink 60% of that total immediately and split the rest up into 3 drinks every 15 minutes. Within an hour of the shot you should have a more solid meal. I suggest going a bit above this perhaps to 1.2 g/kg for carbs and .8-.9 g/kg for protein since insulin will enable the body to store more glucose. If this works for you great, if you still feel hypo or think you work out hard enough to justify more than increase it slowly and see how your body reacts. Also factor in the role of AAS that will increase glucose uptake such as deca
It is now that many people become hyper sensitive to eating fat. Fearing the fat will go directly to their hips and destroy the body they are working so hard for.
Using fat as a fuel for glycogen replacement is nearly impossible for three reasons. First the conversion of fat to energy requires the input of energy (which our body is low on post work out), it requires oxygen to convert (again we are likely oxygen deprived by the end of a good work out) and most importantly the carbon in fats CANNOT be used by the body to create glycogen of any type. It is also worth reminding ourselves that insulin tries to preserve fat.
It is for this reason I think fat has no place in a post workout or post insulin shot environment. The calories simply can’t be used for what we want. Not because it automatically gets turned into fat.
How do I eat while on insulin then?
We have determined the individual and combined effects of insulin and prior exercise on leg muscle protein synthesis and degradation, amino acid transport, glucose uptake, and alanine metabolism. Normal volunteers were studied in the post absorptive state at rest and about 3 h after a heavy leg resistance exercise routine. The leg arteriovenous balance technique was used in combination with stable isotopic tracers of amino acids and biopsies of the vastus lateralis muscle. Insulin was infused into a femoral artery to increase the leg insulin concentrations to high physiologic levels without substantively affecting the whole-body level. Protein synthesis and degradation were determined as rates of intramuscular phenylalanine utilization and appearance, and muscle fractional synthetic rate (FSR) was also determined. Leg blood flow was greater after exercise than at rest (P<0.05). Insulin accelerated blood flow at rest but not after exercise (P<0.05). The rates of protein synthesis and degradation were greater during the postexercise recovery (65+/-10 and 74+/-10 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively) than at rest (30+/-7 and 46+/-8 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively; P<0.05). Insulin infusion increased protein synthesis at rest (51+/-4 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) but not during the postexercise recovery (64+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume; P<0.05). Insulin infusion at rest did not change the rate of protein degradation (48+/-3 nmol x min(-1) 100 ml(-1) leg volume). In contrast, insulin infusion after exercise significantly decreased the rate of protein degradation (52+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume). The insulin stimulatory effects on inward alanine transport and glucose uptake were three times greater during the postexercise recovery than at rest (P<0.05). In contrast, the insulin effects on phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine transport were similar at rest and after exercise. In conclusion, the ability of insulin to stimulate glucose uptake and alanine transport and to suppress protein degradation in skeletal muscle is increased after resistance exercise. Decreased amino acid availability may limit the stimulatory effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
The long and short of the article is this, insulin plays two very different roles post work out and pre work out.
Post work out it decreases protein degradation from: (74+/-10 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) to (52+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) but does not increase synthesis. This means the need for protein in a post workout and post insulin shot shake does not go up from non injection work outs, and may go down by there is no reason to go with less protein.
Insulin shots taken at times other than post work out, such as upon awakening or through out the day have a very different need though. Here protein synthesis is increased from (30+/-7 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) to (51+/-4 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) while degradation remains unchanged. We can safely say that you should increase your protein intake while using insulin during non-post work out situations.
To sum it up, take in high carbs and moderate protein post work out. Take a large amount post shot and keep a bit and sip on in every 15 minutes until your big meal. When using insulin on off days or upon waking keep the protein high to feed the muscle growth it causes. And keep fat as low as possible, especially post work out.
Dosing
If you are reading this section to apply the dosing, I assume you have used insulin before and are familiar with its effects. If not then start at 3 IU and work up to 10 for your first cycle to get used to it. And go read Monster’s insulin primer!
Most of us want to gain as much muscle and as little fat as possible from any drug we use, insulin will be no different. So what is the best dose when considering the balance of muscle gain to fat gain? In research for this article I decided to push the limit of insulin to see how insane doses would affect me and gains. I maxed at using 100 IU post work out for 2 weeks. Definitely STUPID! I tapered down over the next few weeks through 70, 60,50, 40, 30, 20,10 IU post work out. I noticed that around 30 IU on leg day was a good total for me, a little fat gain but nothing horrible. With the use of AAS and or t3 this would likely be eliminated. It also made sense to use more insulin for larger muscle groups (thanks bronco!
. With out the use of AAS or t3 20 IU on leg day would be a perfect number for me and 15 IU on a day where I worked traps and delts. If you do cardio before a work out it would be safe to add 4-10 IU depending on the intensity and your metabolism. For those huge beasts out there or people with great metabolisms then even 40 IU if you are doing a heavy cycle wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility. Just watch your body for two things. First for fat gain. If you start picking up fat drop the dose. Next is hypo feelings after the typical duration of the insulin you are using. When I was at 40+ IU the normal 4 hour duration of Hum-r lasted longer, up to 8 hours at 100IU.Types of Insulin and Shooting methods.
A lot of bros prefer Humalog because of its quick onset and exit from the body. These are exactly the reasons I don’t like it. I prefer the longer action of Humulin-R. If you want a quick onset, then inject the Hum-R IM. IM injections also reduce the amount of insulin that makes it into the blood stream so an additional IU or two wouldn’t hurt.
If you are on an AAS cycle or using GH then using Hum-N (a long acting gentle insulin) would be great for gains. Shooting 10 IU upon waking will let the protein synthesis last all day. Keep carbs handy at all times though just incase you get hypo.
Other tidbits
DON”T GO HYPOGLYCEMIC
Besides being a step away from death it is bad for your test and LH levels
Hypoandrogenemia is frequently associated with hyperinsulinemia in men with the metabolic syndrome. We questioned whether insulin or changes in blood glucose levels influence pituitary gonadotropin secretion or testicular steroidogenesis in healthy men. Also, the relationship between hypoglycemia-induced activation of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis and altered steroidogenesis was examined. Euglycemic and hypoglycemic clamp experiments were performed in 30 healthy men over a period of 6 h. Half of the men were infused with insulin at a rate of 1.5 mU/min.kg; the other half were infused at a rate of 15.0 mU/min.kg. Plasma glucose was held constant during a euglycemic clamp session and was decreased stepwise in a hypoglycemic clamp session. LH and total/free T concentrations decreased under hypoglycemic conditions regardless of the rate of insulin infusion. With euglycemic conditions, LH and T levels remained unchanged. Dehydroepiandrosterone concentrations increased during hypoglycemia, but not during the euglycemic conditions. The FSH concentration was not affected by insulin or glycemic clamps. Hypoglycemia acutely suppresses T secretion, and this effect is apparently mediated by pituitary LH. Insulin is ineffective. As counterregulation to hypoglycemia begins at normoglycemic ranges in poorly controlled type 2 diabetes and probably also in patients with long-term perturbed glucose regulation in the metabolic syndrome, control of glucose-responsive neurons in the brain may contribute to hypoandrogenemia. Apart from down-regulation of hypothalamic release of GnRH, concurrent activation of the pituitary-adrenal axis (i.e. increased release of dehydroepiandrosterone) may add to the suppressive effect of hypoglycemia on gonadal steroidogenesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...2&dopt=Abstract
Yet another reason to sip carbs after a shot and not wait to feel shaky to drink.
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